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what would be "proof" to "you"
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Paraffin



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 14
Location: North Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YB, that was an interesting story. I have had similar experiences and may relate them at a later date.

Mrx, one thing that really gets my goat is being misrepresented. At no point did I call anyone crazy. Neither did I say there are any absolutes. Yet you imply I am a "hardened sceptic" who won't budge on any issue. Seems to me that you are the intransigent one, using every blip on your meter as evidence of "spirits" rather than something else.
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Paraffin



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 14
Location: North Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to Quantum Theory, physicists look with disdain on those who hijack science for their own ends. Philosophy and religious or paranormal beliefs are not compatible with science. You may agree that if something thought to be paranormal is proved *scientifically* to be true it becomes science. If unproven, it remains in the realm of belief. You say that believers try to back up each other's findings. This shows up the level of rigour in your "research". What you are doing isn't science, it's pseudoscience.
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YB
Moderator


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 2167
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets all get along here ok? Just discussing everyones thoughts and opinions.
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damaralenoire



Joined: 19 Oct 2008
Posts: 334
Location: South Wales UK

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paraffin wrote:
I thought this was a live-and-let-live forum. Clearly not.

Damara, it always amuses me when true believers turn to science for support when arguing with a sceptic, yet have no hesitation in rejecting science that disagrees with them. No science supports the existence of ghosts or spirits. Not Quantum Theory or anything else.

Flossy and YB, what criteria do you use for deciding what to believe and what to reject? There must be some method. If not it would just be random choice.


well i guess its totally dependant on how up tight one can be when deciding how liberally to use the word science in this situation. Cos everything in existance has a science behind. Wether you like it or not.
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mrx3010



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using every blip on my meter to validate a ghost etc? If you think that's what I (my team) does, you are gravely mistaken. We know how to use our equipment, we know what it measures and we look for anything conventional to explain those readings. In the case I listed there was no conventional way to debunk the evidence we gathered. We are not playing with expensive toys, these are calibrated profesional meters, if they register something it's hard to ignore it, especially if there were multiple meters reading the same source.
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Solstice Moon



Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Posts: 272
Location: Horsham, W Sussex

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paraffin wrote:
I thought this was a live-and-let-live forum. Clearly not.

Damara, it always amuses me when true believers turn to science for support when arguing with a sceptic, yet have no hesitation in rejecting science that disagrees with them. No science supports the existence of ghosts or spirits. Not Quantum Theory or anything else.

Flossy and YB, what criteria do you use for deciding what to believe and what to reject? There must be some method. If not it would just be random choice.


Witgh respect, I think that science HAS to be the answer. Not because I'm a believer, or a skeptic, but because science is by definition behind everything. If something we know is true make sense with science, then the science is wrong.

Example, for yearsv scientists were puzzled because, according to Newtons laws, Mercury would often appear to be in slightly the wrong position. Did this mean that Newton was wrong? Did it mean that Mercury wasn't in the wrong place, and everybody seeing it was wrong? Neither. It meant that light was being fractionally bent by the proximity of the sun. Newton was right, within the knowledge of his time, but Einstein was then able to show why.

Science isn't a law, it's a reason. It's how things work, and why. Currently there isn't any scientific PROOF that there either is, or isn't ghosts (of any form). many hauntings have been scientifically proven to be something other than paranormal, but many others haven't. To truly prove what we are seeing/experiencing, the science of what's happening needs to be looked into. Scientists can currently prove the existence of particles so small that it'd they're a billionth of the size of an atom. We can't see them, but we know they're there because a) of their reaction with other particles, and b) because if they weren't then many other parts of the universe wouldn't work as they do. Of course we may be mistaken, and find one day we're miles out, but if so then there's just a greater mystery to solve. This is the kind of research needed in the paranormal. It'll never become accepted by everybody (some still believe in a flat earth, in spite evidence, or reject evolution in face of sound evidence. maybe they're right too) but it'll become accepted as fact by the majority, and that's all we can ever hope for.

As for using science one way only, well, I for one will go into investigations with an open, but skeptical mind. Out of all my experiences, I've had several that i can't fully explain, but only one that I'd say was a definite ghost. The rest i can put down to some extent to tricks of the light/imagination/coincidence etc
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Baruc



Joined: 07 Dec 2008
Posts: 24
Location: East Anglia

PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that you have to seperate subjective from objecive.

For many, subjective is evidence enough, whilst others will see things more objectively.

Kind Regards
Baruc.
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Gonk!



Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delete post

Last edited by Gonk! on Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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InaDream



Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No science supports the existence of ghosts or spirits. Not Quantum Theory or anything else


Hmm - so science has totally cracked quantum physics then??? Thats news to me Smile Seriously though, I do believe that's the only way there will ever be the level of "proof" required for the sceptics to accept the paranormal, once science fully understands quantum physics but considering that they are still finding new things previously undiscovered on the ocean floor, it may be a while yet!

But back to topic, my proof is things that happen repeatedly and also things that are simultaneously witnessed by me and others
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InaDream



Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Scientists are just scratching the surface of what Quantum physics may be able to tell us about the universe and the multi verse. Your statement reminds me of a quote from an old book I have in my libraries from the 60s. "There are no other planets outside out solar system." Thanks to better equipments and continued research from dedicated individuals we have proven that assertion wrong as well. It's a big world and we are nothing in the grand scheme of it so there is no way we can decide absolutes when the subject is in shades of gray.


Sorry, leapt in after reading the post I quoted and posted without reading the whole thread Embarassed and missed your excellent post. I totally agree with this and science doesn't have a clue about quantum physics yet and I think it will hold a lot of the answers about "God" the Universe and everything!
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mrx3010



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"You say you were picking up EVP and the EMF only moved when you asked a question, so is it possible your EVP was picking up your voice, creating EMFs and the EMF meter picked that up?"

Not possible at all. Question asked then responses on the equipment recorded. BTW I'm not a newbie to this sort of thing I have been researching and investigating for over twenty years, I know what the limits of the equipment are. I'm not trying to make believers, I gave that up when I was younger, I'm only reporting data and posing theories just like everyone else in this field :)
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D B Sweeney



Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 2842
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Proof to me would be evidence that could be tested. I realise that this is probably going to be rare to capture given the transigent nature of what people perceive to be paranormal activity. No ghost (if they exist) is going to perform for either scientists or cameras.
Sure we have evidence of sorts such as EVP's, photos and anecdotal evidence but that has IMO gone no way towards convincing the scientific community.

DB
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carlos2010



Joined: 23 Oct 2010
Posts: 288

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets have a little light humour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFO6ZhUW38w
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D B Sweeney



Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 2842
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good call Carlos. I've seen him perform that live a few times and it's so very true.

DB
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carlos2010



Joined: 23 Oct 2010
Posts: 288

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its reasonable that every ones definition of proof varies.

Some will believe if it directly happens to them, some will believe because there big brother says so, some will believe when equipment says so, others will only believe when things can be proved in a controlled enviroment with all variables covered.

I like to think after my cat died, the incident in the bathroom was him, but as proof goes, its not substantial enough for me, but could be seen as rock solid evidence by others.
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