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D B Sweeney
Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 2842
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| willfromthehill wrote: | If life is existing with a consciousness then going by the rule that everything is reversed in death......then death is a non existence with no conscious awareness which is spot on - well done Will 
I said the opposite of life is death. Consciousness is what gives us the ability to see, hear, smell, taste and touch. Who said the opposite of consciousness is non exsistance. The opposite to north is not "NONE NORTH" the opposite to north is south.So the opposite to consciousness is not NONE CONSCIOUSNESS.The opposite to consiousness is an opposite state of consiousness. Which is what i was trying to say. Nice try DB but start thinking outside of the box for a change you might actually discover something. |
How can you have any state of consciousness without a brain to process thoughts and how can you have speech without a voice box to articulate or eyes to navigate, process light into electrical signals to send to the brain?. You may be 'thinking outside the box' Will but it's just fanciful speculation. I could equally say that when we die we become invisible strawberry jelly people and that would carry about as much weight as 'everything is reversed in death'.
If you can name any living (or dead) creature that doesn't need a functioning body, composed of essential organs in order to be seen and communicate, then I'll change my opinion on life after death.
DB |
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willfromthehill
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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Location: DURHAM
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| The Ameba. |
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D B Sweeney
Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 2842
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| willfromthehill wrote: | | The Ameba. |
The Amoeba meets the criteria for 'functioning body'.
Amoebae's most recognizable features include one or more nuclei and a simple contractile vacuole to maintain osmotic equilibrium. Food enveloped by the amoeba is stored and digested in vacuoles. Amoebae, like other single-celled eukaryotic organisms, reproduce asexually via mitosis and cytokinesis, not to be confused with binary fission, which is how prokaryotes (bacteria) reproduce. In cases where the amoeba are forcibly divided, the portion that retains the nucleus will survive and form a new cell and cytoplasm, while the other portion dies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoeba
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willfromthehill
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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Location: DURHAM
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| The Ameba is a great case without a micrscope you cant see it. So if you cant see it with the naked eye our hear within the hearing range of the human brain. Does this mean it does not exsist. Try looking at a tv remote control press any button and you will see nothing even though the diode is creating a infrared light. Look again at the remote. But this time through the view finder of a digital camera and press any button.You will then see the diode flashing a purple infrared light.The purple light is there but we cant see it because infrared is invisible to the human eye.I have given you examples of things that are invisible to the human eye. So why cant the dead be present but invisible to the naked eye. |
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D B Sweeney
Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 2842
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| willfromthehill wrote: | | The Ameba is a great case without a micrscope you cant see it. So if you cant see it with the naked eye our hear within the hearing range of the human brain. Does this mean it does not exsist. Try looking at a tv remote control press any button and you will see nothing even though the diode is creating a infrared light. Look again at the remote. But this time through the view finder of a digital camera and press any button.You will then see the diode flashing a purple infrared light.The purple light is there but we cant see it because infrared is invisible to the human eye.I have given you examples of things that are invisible to the human eye. So why cant the dead be present but invisible to the naked eye. |
The Ameba is a great case without a micrscope you cant see it.
But it's still there. It has a physical reality consisting of atoms. It can be observed, tested and measured.
Try looking at a tv remote control press any button and you will see nothing even though the diode is creating a infrared light.
Again, there is known, measurable, testable science behind the physics of a remote control. Yes, it is invisible to the naked eye - many things outside our limited colour spectrum are - but they are understood, proven to exist and can be tested and measured anytime. Ghosts & Spirits are not understood, they can't be measured, they can't be detected with any scientific instruments and they are impossible to quantify.
I have given you examples of things that are invisible to the human eye. So why cant the dead be present but invisible to the naked eye.
Atoms and electrons are invisible to the human eye, black holes are invisible to the human eye. The main difference between the examples cited and the dead is that there's not one piece of empirical evidence that supports the contention that dead people/non physical objects can return to 'the real world' when they cease to function in any cognitive capacity.
I'm not ruling out completely that spirits of the previously living are able to walk amongst us and even communicate but as a sceptic and a rationalist I've yet to see any valid, compelling evidence that suggests they are.
DB |
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willfromthehill
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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Location: DURHAM
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| The reason we can measure and test things unseen to the human eye is they exsist in the same magnetic field. Back to my original analogy that the living exist in AM bandwidth . Spirits exsist in FM bandwidth. You are basing your argument that the dead and living share the same bandwidth. If you are tuned in to the AM bandwidth you will not hear stations broadcasting on the FM bandwidth. So what your argument boils down to is you are trying to prove evidence of FM stations by exploring the AM bandwidth. What if AM and FM are 2 opposite magnetic fields? |
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D B Sweeney
Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 2842
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| willfromthehill wrote: | | The reason we can measure and test things unseen to the human eye is they exsist in the same magnetic field. Back to my original analogy that the living exist in AM bandwidth . Spirits exsist in FM bandwidth. You are basing your argument that the dead and living share the same bandwidth. If you are tuned in to the AM bandwidth you will not hear stations broadcasting on the FM bandwidth. So what your argument boils down to is you are trying to prove evidence of FM stations by exploring the AM bandwidth. What if AM and FM are 2 opposite magnetic fields? |
Will, human beings are not radio frequencies and there's zero proof that spirits broadcast themselves on AM, FM or MW. It's an interesting hypothesis, nothing more. You're making speculations that have no evidential support let alone solid scientific consensual proof. Throwing in 'magnetic fields' adds no validity to the claim you're making. I'm not trying to prove anything since the onus is on you ie: the person making the claim to prove that spirits exist and the dead can interact in a non physical way with the living.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof
If I said I had an invisible, fire breathing Dragon in my garage it would be up to me to prove that claim not for you to disprove it.
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willfromthehill
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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Location: DURHAM
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:12 am Post subject: |
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So why does 99% of your posts consist of you trying to disprove peoples experiances.I have describe things that are facts infrared, radio frequencies and magnetic fields. All you do is try to disprove my theories with invisible firebreathing dragons and strawberry jelly.I have never said humans are radio frequencies or spirits broadcast themselves on FM that was an ANALOGY.
Will, human beings are not radio frequencies and there's zero proof that spirits broadcast themselves on AM, FM or MW
Just one more time. The living and the dead exsist one in an earthly state and one in a spirital state. We know of the earthly state because we are exsisting in the earthly state. Once we die we enter the spirit state and experiance the spirit state.Life and Death are just a change in consciousness. We cant exsist in the earthly state without a bodily entity like a spaceman needs a space suit to survive in space.Once the spirit leaves the earthly body it loses the reciever the body and brain provided. Whether you believe that or not is not up to me. It is not my job to prove you anything it is up to you to discover for yourself.I believe this because of personal experiances and my own research. Not looking up skeptical explanations and taking that as fact. So i think we can come to the conclusion that we are poles apart here. |
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thecactus
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 3196
Location: Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:20 am Post subject: |
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I am enjoying this debate
Thanks for that DB - I am going to say exactly that about alien visitors on AU |
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D B Sweeney
Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 2842
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| willfromthehill wrote: | So why does 99% of your posts consist of you trying to disprove peoples experiances.I have describe things that are facts infrared, radio frequencies and magnetic fields. All you do is try to disprove my theories with invisible firebreathing dragons and strawberry jelly.I have never said humans are radio frequencies or spirits broadcast themselves on FM that was an ANALOGY.
Will, human beings are not radio frequencies and there's zero proof that spirits broadcast themselves on AM, FM or MW
Just one more time. The living and the dead exsist one in an earthly state and one in a spirital state. We know of the earthly state because we are exsisting in the earthly state. Once we die we enter the spirit state and experiance the spirit state.Life and Death are just a change in consciousness. We cant exsist in the earthly state without a bodily entity like a spaceman needs a space suit to survive in space.Once the spirit leaves the earthly body it loses the reciever the body and brain provided. Whether you believe that or not is not up to me. It is not my job to prove you anything it is up to you to discover for yourself.I believe this because of personal experiances and my own research. Not looking up skeptical explanations and taking that as fact. So i think we can come to the conclusion that we are poles apart here. |
I'm not out to disprove anyone's claims. For a start it'd be impossible to completely disprove any claim. I try to offer logical, natural explanations to what people believe are supernatural experiences - my posts on your Ghost Bus thread will bare this out.
I refer to Dragons and Jelly people merely to show how the same logic can be used to justify any claim - however scientifically unsound it may seem.
I'm open to any theories as long as they're credible and have some grounding in fact. I link to some sceptical sites because they provide factual explanations. I've been researching the paranormal for over 30 years as a believer and as a sceptic but never as a cynic and the one thing I've learned in all that time is this - belief is easy but proof is hard.
DB |
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willfromthehill
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 62
Location: DURHAM
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:33 am Post subject: |
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[quote="thecactus"]I am enjoying this debate
Thanks for your comment Cactus i too am enjoying debating this theory with DB.I hope that i have given some evidence that can prove the "possabilty" of this theory. One thing that is certain is that we do die and even religion which i am not a great fan of suggests an after life.
The only way to prove this theory would be to invent some kind of reciever capable of picking up the electrical waves generated by the spirit world. But to do that you would first need to discover if the spirit world shares the same electromagnetic field to ours. After all of this you would then after decode all the electrical waves to turn them into sound vision waves. |
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D B Sweeney
Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 2842
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Numerous methods of communication with the spirit world have been marketed and claimed to offer genuine contact between the physical world and whatever world the dead live on.
Franks Box and various EVP collection techniques seem to be the most common.
http://www.ghost-tech.com/franks.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon
But are these devices really collecting voices from the dead?. I still maintain that a voice needs a voicebox just as much as they need a Brain to create the thought before it's spoken. There are however ways to verify if the communications from the spirits are genuine using simple questioning. Let's hope AgentScotts Ouija session doesn't end in madness and terror and he gets some communication that proves the existence of the afterlife
DB |
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willfromthehill
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 62
Location: DURHAM
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Thats baseing your argument that the spirit leaving the body becomes some kind of energy so not having a brain or voicebox. What if in the spirit world the spirit becomes solid matter? You keep making your decisions on what happens in the living world. When talking about the spirit world we are not talking natural but supernatural.Maybe my analogy was a bad one in the first place. You keep saying the opposite of consciousness is nothing. When infact the literal opposite to consciousness is unconsciousness.The real question here is. Is the opposite to life death?Or does life have no opposite and so death is the end.I dont know about you but i cant imagine how i could exsist as nothing.The earth spirit cycle makes more sense and their are loads of cases of reincarnations. But even when people recall past events in past lives and they are proved to be correct in their memmories even this is dismissed. How much evidence do you need. |
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D B Sweeney
Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 2842
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| willfromthehill wrote: | | I dont know about you but i cant imagine how i could exsist as nothing.. |
Think about the infinite length of time before you were born, take out the time you were alive - and that's pretty much what's awaiting you when you die
DB |
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D B Sweeney
Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 2842
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| willfromthehill wrote: | | You keep making your decisions on what happens in the living world. When talking about the spirit world we are not talking natural but supernatural. |
That's because the living world is all we have as a yardstick. Until we get to measure, test, weigh and analyse the spirit world we're in the dark and in the land of speculation.
We don't know that there is a spirit world since no one has made it back to tell us about it and submit themselves for testing and measurement although millions have no doubt said they'd come back.
DB |
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